Performance Tuners... ???.......

[Grumpy]

has anyone ever used a programmer like this ?? ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, http://www.edgeproducts.com/product.php?pk=122&pvk=345 .... im looking to get one for my F150 but dont know if it will be worth the $$ or not ... any an all input will be grateful.. thanks

[cgrey8]

I've never used one of these type tuners. The feedback seems mixed on these type units. Some people really believe they help them, and some people believe they weren't worth the money. In fact, it seems the vast majority of people that really like these setups (Viper, Bullydog, etc) are people running diesels, not gasoline. While you might get some noticeable changes from a gasoline tuner, my expectation is the info you get back from it will be more useful than any tuning it might do to the computer. Then again, the info you get back might be purely anecdotal. I know I'd never own one for my truck, not after having the full-tuning capabilities that a full-up DIY tuning device gives. But the DIY tuner/dataloggers aren't for everybody. There's a learning curve associated to them that many people aren't interested in overcoming.

[Grumpy]

well.. im willing to learn anything... i just wouldnt know what im looking for or at till i could sit and learn what a "stock" readout looks like and all that..... plus... i would NEED a teacher to get me going in the right direction and help me learn it as i go ... if that makes since ??? then there are the "data links" .. are they bought ??? made at home??? or what ??? i can make one if i had the schematic on what all i needed and what part when where in what circuit and all that (i took electronics back in H.S.) .... man ... are we ALL a bunch of jack of all trades on her ???? LMAO .... any who... ill do some back reading and searching on here in the next week or so to see what i can find and see what i can learn ......... but ... ANY help or info on learning all that... well...... T.Y. in advance hahahah .............

[cgrey8]

If you are at all interested in full-on DIY tuning, then there's some FAQs I've written over on the EECTuning.org site. For newbies, I wrote up a "getting started" thread:
EECTuning.org>How to get started and Best Practices

This link gives people some direction on recommended reading that will explain exactly what it is they'd be getting into technically, financially, and mechanically. The main link I think that would benefit you the most is the thread about what to know BEFORE buying tuning hardware.

Once you've read that, the general Glossary of Terms will also give you some insight as to what "new" words and concepts will be expected knowledge for DIY tuners. Many of the terms are common to most anybody that does any amount of mechanicin'. But many of the terms are very specific to tuning and likely things you've never heard of before or at least were only vaguely familiar existed.

If you read through all that and are still intrigued enough you'd like to know more, feel free to ask questions either here or over on the EECTuning.org forum. I am fairly active over there, but there are other guys over there that have far more experience and knowledge than I do and can answer your questions better/more accurately than I.

[plowboy34]

Not that brand but I installed a bullydog on my brothers 08 Charger and it made a big difference. He knew someone where he lives who had a Challenger with the same engine and when they raced it was a even race according to both of them. My brother knows nothing of cars so he asked me to do this for him. After installing it he ran the Challenger again and said he walked him by about 5 car lengths in the 1/4 mile. My brother claims you could feel the difference and it was like it took a couple days for it to take full affect. He said the guy that sold it to him told him it would do that, he claims the computer would have to learn things over a little time and my bro said thats exactly what it did. Hope this helps but thats all the info I got.

[cgrey8]

I have no clue how much "buffer" Dodge put into their tunes. But it sounds like they have.

I do recall that the 80s Mustangs left a lot on the table that a simple chip install could get back. However many of the more modern engines don't leave nearly as much up for grabs. A dyno tuner I talked to was telling me that the new 5.0 Mustangs don't even have another 5hp that can be squeezed out of the tune without making mods...and he struggled to get the few hp bumps he did find. After finding that out, he tells people coming in for 5.0 tunes that it's simply not worth the money unless they've done engine mods.

Now exactly what the tuners are doing is more important. I don't know exactly what they are doing, but my suspicion is this. Stock tunes often assume people will use 87 octane most of the time. With the advent of variable cam/valve timing, the EEC has the ability to modify the engine's cam performance. Although there are limits with SOHC setups since all they can do is change the "index" of the cam...same thing traditional engine builders are doing when they advance or retard a cam using a cam timing kit. The 3 & 4-valve DOHCs are not nearly as limited. They can range anywhere from sunday driving to all-out performance with almost instant transition because they get to control roughly 50% of the cam behavior. With DOHC setups where one cam is the intake valves and the other is the exhaust, the EEC gets to manipulate both intake and exhaust lobe center events. This gives them the power to change index as well as change lobe separation angle on the fly. DOHCs that have intake and exhaust on each stick get to change index and the effective duration of the cam and indirectly lobe separation angle, but it's kind of muddy figuring out what the effective LSA is. In fact, when tuning, you don't think about LSA. You just focus on effective duration and events to get the desired cylinder filling and scavenging that works best for the RPM/Load at that time.

I don't know this for sure, but I've also heard that some DOHC setups have asymmetrical valve sizes and even have separate port runners for each valve in the head that align with separate runners in the intake. I do know the newer Mustnags run dual runners through their intakes and at lower RPMs, they literally cut off the larger runners to build more torque using the Intake Manifold Runner Control (IMRC), but once the RPMs get above about ~3000, the IMRC opens up those other runners which are optimized for a higher RPM range. In the case where one cam controls the "smaller runners" and the other cam controls the "larger runners" the IMRC would play into the cam event control as well. It's amazing how many people "delete" the IMRC and refuse to accept/admit that they actually lost lower RPM torque for doing that. The IMRC is a torque enhancer at lower RPMs and is not costing the engine power as you might think it would if it is blocking off air passages to the engine.

So what does all this have to do with tuning devices? Well most all these engines also have knock sensors so they can trim-n-respond to detonation as it occurs. The old days of knock sensors was simply pulling timing which was a terrible waste, but it was really the only thing the EEC could do with no cam control. But now that EECs have cam control, they can literally retime the cams to reduce the amount of air the engine pulls in and eliminate the detonation while still maintaining optimal spark thus getting as much out of each squirt of fuel as can be had. The catch is that one tank of gas may be 87 octane and the next might be premium at 93. The EEC learns where detonation/knock occurs at, but there are also hard-coded limits in the tune that prevent the EEC from learning any more spark/cam control than the factory has deemed as safe. So even with 93 octane, it might be possible to get a little more out of the engine, but that is limited. Why? What happens when the engine has learned up an aggressive mode, but the next tank of fuel is 87 or worse just below 87 octane? First time the user gets on the car hard, yeah the knock sensor may be screaming, but the damage could happen faster than the EEC can detect and correct for it. So many times, these tuning devices override the EEC's better judgement to allow for more aggressive learning and that's fine as long as the owner is aware of this and doesn't attempt to get on the engine hard shortly after switching from premium back to regular. But the factory often isn't willing to take those chances hence the governed limits unless the vehcile was sold as a Premium-only vehicle.

That's just something to be aware of could be the issue if the documentation with the tuner doesn't bring it up.