What are these plugs trying to tell me?

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cgrey8
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What are these plugs trying to tell me?

Post by cgrey8 »

For the past few weeks, I've noticed a high load misfire that happens from time to time. I thought it was lean-out or something, but then I got to thinking it may be plugs. They are Bosch Platinum plugs, but I do have an MSD unit that fires the plugs multiple times every fire. At lower RPMs, it fires 5-6 times per cycle. As RPMs go up though, it backs off.

In anycase, I got some new plugs this afternoon and put them in. The plugs were already in the motor when I dropped the motor into the engine bay. So this was the 1st time I'd messed with the plugs since the motor went in. I figured the driver's side would be the easiest since I can see every plug without much trouble. I was really not looking forward to trying to get the #4 on the passenger side. But to my surprise, the passenger's side plugs were 10x easier to get out. The #4 was nearly impossible to get to from above, however from the wheel well, a long 3/8" extension landed right on it and it was probably the easiest.

Every plug looked pretty much just alike which I guess is a good thing. But the interesting thing is on one side of each plug, looks very nice and clean. The other side though is coated with some kind of black glaze. This is what they looked like:
Image
Notice how the particulate looks caked on, but only on 1 side. On the clean plug, notice the cupping of the ground electrode due to the wear. I didn't get a good shot of the ground electrode but they are all obviously eroded...far more eroded I'd expect for only 29kmiles. I guess that MSD box is really hard on plugs.


Image
This doesn't look too bad to me. This is what I'd expect the plug to look like all over. But it's only on 1 side.

Image
Notice how the platinum electrode isn't there anymore. When I installed these plugs, the center electrode was flush with the porcelain. Now there's an obvious receding of the electrode. I can't see the electrode on any of the plugs. From what I understand, the platinum electrode isn't very large.

So what can I learn about these plugs? What are they trying to tell me? Is the MSD box causing more problems than it is helping since this is only a stock motor or is the MSD box the only reason the engine ran as good as it did?

As for the loaded misfires, I didn't drive it out of the neighborhood and I couldn't really get the motor loaded since it is raining right now. I'll know more on that tomorrow.
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usmcrp1044
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Post by usmcrp1044 »

I dont know a ton about it but I do understand abit how your MSD ignition works.

Like you said, the plug w/ the MSD sparks 5-6 times per cycle as opposed to a stock ignition which I believe only gives it one good spark.

Is it a possibility that the wear is caused by the much more frequent sparking? ie, the 30,000 miles these have on them would be more like 150,000 miles w/ a regular ignition system?

Just kinda a shot in the dark. :D

Also, all the build up... couldnt that just be the engine running way to rich? I helped my girlfriends dad take the heads off of his motor, which was running wayyy to rich, and everything in the combustion chamber was coated in carbon.
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Post by Adam McLaughlin »

So what plugs did you put back into the engine when you swapped these out?

Adam
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Post by cgrey8 »

Carbon deposits from a rich burn would usually be soft and would rub right off with your fingers leaving VERY black soot all over your fingers. This is hard and would have to be soaked or chipped off. If it were more gray in color, I would call this buildup from gas additives. But this is that same kind of hard buildup, but dark. I would also call it a glazing. Typically sparkplug glazing is caused by heat spikes on hard acceleration where buildup melts to form that lacquer or glaze. But typical descriptions of glazing due to heat are that the color of the glaze is yellow. This is no where near yellow. It's just charred. That's what was confusing me. There's no pictures or description of this kind of plug condition that I can find so I thought I'd ask around and get some other opinions.

As for what I replaced them with, I got Autolite Double Platinums. The Double Platinums are usually only needed on EDIS systems where 2 plugs share a coil and the current flow is in one plug and out the other so you need a platinum tip on the center electrode (for the plug accepting current in and transferring it to the ground electrode) and and platinum tip on the ground electrode (for the plug that will have exiting current from the ground to the center). The polarity of the current actually defines which electrode will erode away quicker. Ford actually has 2 different plugs they install in EDIS motors or at least they used to. One had the platinum on the center electrode, the other had the platinum on the ground electrode. They did this just so they didn't have to pay for double-platinum plugs since they are more expensive. Then they just installed the correct plugs in the correct locations for which direction the current would flow. Since that's too complicated for the aftermarket, the aftermarket plugs just simplify that with a double-platinum plug that can handle plug current in either direction. In a normal distributor-based ignition like mine, the ground platinum tip doesn't really serve much purpose, but the guy sold them to me for the price of the standard Autolite Platinums so I wasn't going to argue with him.
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Post by cgrey8 »

A guy from the EECtuning forum I think hit the nail on the head. He believes the deposits are oil deposits. I never put a separator between my PCV and intake. So it is quite possible that the reason the plugs are caked on one side like that is because that's the side that was facing the intake valve. He also noted the spots on the clean side are indications of predetonation probably caused by hot spots on dirty side.

For now, I'll probably leave things the way they are and accept that new plugs will be needed every 25-30kmiles. But whenever the intake gets taken off or the motor is swapped, I'll be sure to put a separator in between the intake and PCV so that oil particulate is caught. For people with these separators, how often does it have to be drained?

As for how the new plugs run, the engine is a little smoother and does have a little more power. But I can't say it is performing the way it used to. I suspect the gas formula has changed because gas stations all over my area just in the past 2 weeks are putting up these new stickers informing people that their gasoline may contain up to 10% ethanol. There goes my gas mileage. It may also explain why my 1st gear WOTs don't break the tires loose like they used to.
...Always Somethin'

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Post by MalcolmV8 »

I have a mini water/air separator installed on the blue truck. It splices in the vacuum line that runs from the pcv to the intake. It's fairly small but I have to empty it every 1000 to 1500 miles or so. You'll be surprised how much oil goes through your intake.
Mine was also really bad before I realized there's a steel wool looking filter that slips down into the lower intake below the pcv valve.
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Post by broncobowsher »

I think it is a mix. There appears to be a little detonation going on. I think there is some glazing as well. But I would also think there is a little rich or a little oil going on top of all that, well under it. So a little detonation, some oil or fuel carbon buildup buried under glazing. Combustion temps a little high, EGR not working?
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Post by cgrey8 »

The oil is very possible. In fact, the oil makes perfect sense especially after hearing about Malcolm having to empty his separator every 1000 miles or so. I'll eventually get a separator installed on mine and I'll also check on getting a replacement steel-wool sponge thing to go under the PCV. I think this will make the most significant difference in improving the plug life. So it's quite possible without the MSD box, I would've had problems well before now.

And there may very well be some detonation on WOTs, but I wouldn't call it excessive. I've had to retard my timing quite a bit from when I ran 93 to get it to run 87 octane without pinging the heads off. Perhaps those marks predate those efforts?

And the EGR is working fine. I monitor the EGR position all the time, and I always have movement. As well, when I pull vacuum on it manually, I can hear the EGR flow affecting the engine so I know it is flowing exhaust. But EGR is also effectively disabled under heavier loads. It's quite possible that I need to increase the EGR flow at the higher loads where temps would be the highest. Since emissions tests don't test an engine over 50% load, that's about the cutoff for EGR in stock tunes. As load increases above 50%, (Open Loop or Closed Loop) the EGR is backed off. Since I do extend Closed Loop a little higher than stock, perhaps increasing the EGR flow up there will help with the glazing. The motor doesn't go OL/WOT mode until load is well above 60% so if I increase the EGR flow at 60%, that might just take care of that. Incidentally, emission tests don't test motors above 2500RPMs either, so it's no surprise that EGR is all but disabled for RPMs above 2500 in the stock A9L tune as well. The 93 Cobra X3Z EEC has it completely disabled above 2500RPMs.
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Post by plowboy34 »

That is definately burnt oil. I was gonna ask if you knew which way the plugs were pointing. I thought maybe if it was up your valves may be seeping a little oil. Check your PCV line and see if it has oil in it. As Malcolm said you would be surprised how much oil a PCV pulls. Also a MSD box will wear your plugs out faster. There good stuff but they will work them plugs over.
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Post by Adam McLaughlin »

cgrey8 wrote:As for how the new plugs run, the engine is a little smoother and does have a little more power. But I can't say it is performing the way it used to. I suspect the gas formula has changed because gas stations all over my area just in the past 2 weeks are putting up these new stickers informing people that their gasoline may contain up to 10% ethanol. There goes my gas mileage. It may also explain why my 1st gear WOTs don't break the tires loose like they used to.
Whoa! Your gas in just 10% Ethanol?

Man, us California guys get fuel MUCH worse than that over here. I wish that our fuel was only 10% Ethanol!

Adam
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1989 Mustang w/ H/C/I V-2 SQ and A9S w/ TwEECer
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Post by cgrey8 »

Yeah they just recently started putting up all the stickers on the gas pumps indicating they are 10% ethanol. We don't have E85 yet. No gas station I'm aware of in my area has it. But you see the Flex-Fuel vehicles all over.

What is yall's gas?
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Post by broncobowsher »

There are a few E85 stations. Look up your area
http://www.e85refueling.com/
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Post by Dave »

Most the stations here in Wisconsin have been 10% for awhile but I have found a station just off the interstate that still has 100% gas so I have made a practice of filling up at (today) $3.65, average in town is $3.75
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Post by cgrey8 »

broncobowsher wrote:There are a few E85 stations. Look up your area
http://www.e85refueling.com/
3 stations in all of Atlanta, none of which are near me or on my regular commute. Until E85 is as easy to get as gasoline or diesel, it's just not a viable option for me.
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