Disc vs. Cone LS-RE Clutches

[cgrey8]

I've heard a number of times that the cone clutches are better than disc clutches in limited-slip rear-ends (REs). However looking in a JEGS magazine, I see that AuburnGear sells their "Pro Series" Ford 8.8" Cone style differential for cheaper ($432.99) than EATON's disc style ($489.99). AuburnGear's entry-level "High Performance Series" 8.8" RE differentials are an even more affordable $362.99 and still utilize cone-style clutches for load biasing.

Any reason for the difference in price?

Is the cone style clutch truly superior to the disc?

I mainly want to avoid inner-wheel spin when I take corners as the V6 does all the time in the rain. I also want to add traction for muddy roads as well. At the same time, I don't want a Limited Slip RE that stays locked more than it slips creating a very entertaining experience around corners in the rain. For this, would the AuburnGear "High Performance Series" be plenty?

I've heard that some LS-REs have a tendency of burning out clutches. I assume this happens only under extreme or abusive conditions. Any comments?

The truck has a factory 7.5” RE. To avoid the problems Malcolm had with getting his Explorer RE to work, I'll hold out as long as I can for an 8.8" RE from a Ranger in hopes of a seamless fit. Does anybody know right off whether Rangers with 8.8s used the 31-spline or the 28-spline axles?

Chris

[MalcolmV8]

Ranger 8.8" rearends have 28 spline axles. The explorer rear I used has 31 spline axles. They say the cone type limited slip units are better but I personally have never used one or played with one. All mine have been the factory disk type.

When I thought the spider gears in mine might be toast I was looking on Ebay and finding some very good factory style lockers for around $50. Even if the clutch pack needs rebuilding the rebuild kits sell for around $40.

Malcolm

[cgrey8]

Those are much better prices...

I'll look into that. Thanks.

Chris

[blk94xlt]

Here is a link to the type of differential that I am probably going to try in my truck when I get to that point. You should be able to find an open diff from a ranger that you can put it in.

https://www.truckperformance.com/produc ... tID=959853

[cgrey8]

Here's another question, I'm not fully sure about. Summit Racing sells installation kits for REs. The only part in the installation kit that sounds like it's not reusable is a crush sleave. Are these kits absolutely necessary on any tear-down of the RE or are they only necessary when replacing the pinion?

I've worked on REs before, but I've never replaced a pinion before. Malcolm, you said you have a video that walked you through a RE build. What words of wisdom did you learn in that other than what you could read in a Chilton or Hayes manual?

Chris

[Dave]

Chris,
No experence with either the cone or disc type RE. I put in a PowerTrax system in mine last Summer, same thing as Blk97 is thinking about in post above. Easy to do, no special tools required. Just replace the spider gears with the square toothed , spring loaded parts in the kit. I've been driving in snow for the last couple of weeks and really enjoy the difference with no problems.
Congrats on finially getting to start your project, good luck with it!
Dave

[MalcolmV8]

Malcolm, you said you have a video that walked you through a RE build. What words of wisdom did you learn in that other than what you could read in a Chilton or Hayes manual?

Haynes manual? Haha that's a joke. Seriously though. It was a two DVD set and covered so much stuff I watched most of it twice, some parts 3 times or more. There's a lot more to setting up a rearend correctly than I realized. In fact I think rebuilding my rearend was more of a chore than rebuilding my T5. I'm by no means an expert now but I'll try and answer your questions.

Basically no you shouldn't need to purchase that summit rebuild kit. You shouldn't have to pull the pinion unless you are changing gears or replacing bearings. To add a locker shouldn't require anything more special than a dial indicator gauge to check back lash on the ring gear. A dial caliper to check shims as you get the carrier centered properly. Something that should be checked since the locker replaces the old carrier (The units I've seen do, some may not replace the carrier?). Then after you run some gear marking compound through the gears and verify your gear mesh pattern is good then you're OK.

However should the gear pattern show you need a different size shim on the pinion you have to pull it all apart and change the pinion shim. Takes a little while. Not to mention the pinion bearing is pressed on the pinion. Quite a job. You get another size shim in there and start over. The tricky thing is carrier shims adjust the carrier side to side which affects ring gear back lash which also affects gear mesh pattern. It's almost like a puzzle. You have to get the right combo of pinion shim thinkness, carrier shim sizes, backlash in spec, and of course gear mesh patter must look right. They make tools to simplify the process but cha-ching. The Ford pinion depth tool for figuring out pinion shim thickness the easy way costs over $400.

Once you pull the pinion you'll need a dial or beam type torque wrench that will around 0-30 or 0-60 in-lb. A click or rachet torque wrench will not work here. As you mentioned a new crush sleeve is needed when re-installing a pinion for the final assembly. You crush the sleeve until you get the correct amount of preload on the pinion bearings measured with the afore mentioned torque wrench.

Anyhow didn't mean to confuse the situation. If you find a Ranger 8.8 with a factory trac-loc life will be simple.

Later
Malcolm

[cgrey8]

Basically no you shouldn't need to purchase that summit rebuild kit. You shouldn't have to pull the pinion unless you are changing gears or replacing bearings.

I am wanting to put the 3.27's in my RE so that will be a pinion change right?

However should the gear pattern show you need a different size shim on the pinion you have to pull it all apart and change the pinion shim. Takes a little while. Not to mention the pinion bearing is pressed on the pinion. Quite a job. You get another size shim in there and start over. The tricky thing is carrier shims adjust the carrier side to side which affects ring gear back lash which also affects gear mesh pattern. It's almost like a puzzle. You have to get the right combo of pinion shim thinkness, carrier shim sizes, backlash in spec, and of course gear mesh patter must look right. They make tools to simplify the process but cha-ching. The Ford pinion depth tool for figuring out pinion shim thickness the easy way costs over $400.

Does this include ruining a crush ring if it's wrong or is this check made BEFORE you torque the nut down, crushing the ring?

Are the various combinations of shims part of the installation kit?

Once you pull the pinion you'll need a dial or beam type torque wrench that will around 0-30 or 0-60 in-lb. A click or rachet torque wrench will not work here.

Just out of curiosity, why? I have a dial torque wrench anyway so that's not too big of a problem, however I use a clicker more often just out of convenience. I was just curious as to what you are looking for in the dial that you can't see with the clicker style.

It does sound like a tedious job, but one worth knowing something about. I've sweated hard work, but I rarely shy away from a challenge. Some of the issues I've heard about before, but I didn't think about when you make one adjustment, it affects another. As I mentioned before, I've worked on REs, but never pulling the pinion. The occasion just never occured for me to need to so all your info is enlightening.

What's the name of the DVD set? I'm interested in investing in it if you recommend it. I also need to go ahead and get the L&L motor mounts, headers, and the remote oil filter relocator.

I got time for them since the real installation work won't happen until the summer. For now, I'm most interested in getting the engine torn down, cleaned up, and rebuilt without the weather getting to the machined surfaces and rusting everything up. In the land of humidity, that's going to prove quite the challenge.

Chris

[MalcolmV8]

I am wanting to put the 3.27's in my RE so that will be a pinion change right?

Yes you will be replacing the ring and pinion gears.

Does this include ruining a crush ring if it's wrong or is this check made BEFORE you torque the nut down, crushing the ring?

You use the old crush sleeve while doing the checking. You just tighten down the nut until the bearings have the correct amount of preload. The sleeve will already be crushed so it's pretty easy.

Are the various combinations of shims part of the installation kit?

Yes

Just out of curiosity, why? I have a dial torque wrench anyway so that's not too big of a problem, however I use a clicker more often just out of convenience. I was just curious as to what you are looking for in the dial that you can't see with the clicker style.

I normally always use clicker style myself. But when you are measuring the bearing preload you are checking how much preload is on the bearing as you are turning the pinion around. You need a dial or bar style torque wrench so you can see what the actual torque is as you turn the pinion around. I tried doing it with a clicker at first and it's almost impossible. It takes more force to start the pinion turning than it does to keep it turning and it's the amount of torque it takes to keep it turning that you are interested in.

What's the name of the DVD set? I'm interested in investing in it if you recommend it. I also need to go ahead and get the L&L motor mounts, headers, and the remote oil filter relocator.

Here's the site
http://pages.prodigy.net/kennethl6/
He (Ken) sells his stuff on Ebay. He's been a Ford tech for 30 years and knows his stuff pretty well. The DVD set which also came with some paper work, charts of gear mesh etc. cost $35 delivered. Not bad considering a local shop wanted $250 labor to do a gear swap.

Malcolm

[MercuRanger]

Couple things I'd like to add:

Auburn LS units are not rebuildable. When they wear out, you shell out another $400 for a new one. Also, I put one in my IROC and it was really easy to get only one tire spinning. It only takes a few seconds to wipe the unit out with only one tire spinning. Differently sized or a tire with low air can also burn any LS up.

When you take the old rear apart, keep the factory shims in order and try them. They should be really close to correct for the new unit. I lucked out with my IROC and it was perfect with the factory shims.

Mike

[cgrey8]

Mike, that's what I was wanting to get feedback on. They are cheaper because they can't be rebuilt (easily anyway). If limited slips are prone to wear out even without abuse, then I'll want to get what's easiest to maintain for the future.

I just bought the DVD set that Malcolm recommended from Ebay. I emailed the seller and he said I just missed the last one being sold by about an hour. He reposted another selling and I got it while it was hot. So hopefully I can make sense of all this and not screw something up in the process.

I got what Malcolm was saying about needing the meter style torque wrench, and not the clicker types, however I'm not yet clear on why it takes more torque to start the pinion to spin, as opposed to the torque to maintain it. Hopefully the video will make the lightbulb come on.

In light of this information, I have to agree with you, a locker addition may be better than a limited slip solution. Anybody else have any testimonials to offer as to what REs are worth the money?

Chris

[MalcolmV8]

If limited slips are prone to wear out even without abuse, then I'll want to get what's easiest to maintain for the future.

I'm sure everyone's milage may very but my 94 Ranger had a limited slip from the factory. It now has 149600 miles and still works great.

I got what Malcolm was saying about needing the meter style torque wrench, and not the clicker types, however I'm not yet clear on why it takes more torque to start the pinion to spin, as opposed to the torque to maintain it. Hopefully the video will make the lightbulb come on.

Not sure if this is a good comparison but think of a nut or bolt that is fairly tight. The mount of force required to start it turning will be more than what's required to keep it turning once it's moving.

[cgrey8]

Ahhh, I was thinking the pinion itself was spinning or slipping and that didn't make any sense. The only parts that are friction holds are the bearing that you mentioned was pressed on (a friction hold).

Now I think I understand what you are referring to and why the clicker wrench clicks before the nut begins to turn, but once the nut turns, it doesn't free up enough to "unclick" the wrench so it can re-click when you are at target with the nut actually tightening.

Is that the jist of it?

Chris

[MalcolmV8]

Ahhh, I was thinking the pinion itself was spinning

It is the pinion that is spinning. You will see in the video what I'm talking about. After you slide in the pinion with the bearings you tighten down the nut. This will put a certain amount of preload on the bearings making it somewhat tight when you try and turn the pinion around. It's that amount of preload on the bearings that you're trying to set and check.

[cgrey8]

I think I understand a little better, but I'm still not quite there with comfort.

I'll watch the video and ask questions then if it doesn't clear it all up instead of furthering the proof of my ignorance for all to read.

Thanks for trying,
Chris